fastclemmy.com

Article original du 04.08.03 - Un (des nombreux) grief(s) que l'on m'a fait à propos de ce site c'est le fait que les sites du portfolio ou que le PDF du CV ne s'ouvrent pas par défaut dans une nouvelle fenêtre. Bien sûr un target="_blank" résoudrait le problème, mais pour toutes ces bonnes raisons je ne le ferai pas.

Ce problème illustre le fait qu'une mauvaise habitude de conception web a été inculquée aux internautes : pour eux un lien vers un site extérieur doit forcément ouvrir une nouvelle fenêtre. Or ce n'est pas au site d'imposer son type de navigation, si l'utilisateur veut ouvrir un lien dans une nouvelle fenêtre c'est à lui d'utiliser les possibilités de son navigateur. D'autant que cela peut se faire d'un seul clic avec un navigateur digne de ce nom.

Mise à jour du 14.11.03 - Extraits d'une (vive) discussion sur le sujet

Pourquoi ouvrir une fenêtre casse la navigation linéaire ?

Dans un browser web, la navigation est par définition linéaire : on surfe de lien en lien. Ouvrir des nouvelles fenêtres casse cette linéarité. Non pas que ce soit mauvais en soi, c'est juste qu'il faut que l'utilisateur en soit conscient (rien n'indique généralement sur une page si le lien va s'ouvrir dans une nouvelle fenêtre). Le meilleur moyen étant que lui-même fasse le choix d'ouvrir une nouvelle fenêtre, cessons de forcer la main aux gens, de perpétuer cette sorte d'assistanat de la nouvelle fenêtre. Soit c'est effectivement un newbie et la navigation linéaire ne le déroutera pas, soit c'est un power-user et il pourra à son gré ouvrir le lien qu'il veut dans une nouvelle fenêtre ou dans un nouveau tab.

Bel exemple de connerie jusqu'au-bout-iste... Désolé, mais quand sur mon site je fais un lien vers ailleurs, j'ai pas envie de perdre mes visiteurs !

Je pense que tu n'as pas saisi la logique du truc. Ouvrir une nouvelle fenêtre, c'est jouer avec le navigateur de la personne, c'est donc logiquement le rôle de javascript, pas du HTML, il est donc normal qu'en utilisant en DTD stricte on se fasse envoyer paître.

Imposer l'ouverture d'une nouvelle fenêtre au visiteur, ça fait partie de ces vieilles habitudes qu'on traine et qu'il faut s'efforcer d'oublier. D'autant qu'il n'est pas évident pour quelqu'un qui utilise peu Internet, enfin quelqu'un de normal quoi, pas comme nous, de comprendre le mécanisme de l'ouverture d'une nouvelle fenêtre (impossible de faire "Précédent", fenêtre ayant bougé, redimensionnée...).

Le webmaster et lui seul doit pouvoir décider comment on navigue sur son site, avec de nouvelles fenetres s'il veut.

Erreur. C'est au visiteur de décider comment il veut naviguer. Moi par exemple j'ai horreur des target blank, je middle-click tous les liens pour qu'ils s'ouvrent plutôt dans un nouveau tab puisque mon navigateur dispose de cette fonction.

Le client est roi. C'est aussi dans cet esprit que tu ne dois pas baser ta navigation sur javascript par exemple, au cas où ton visiteur n'aurait pas cette fonction activée (le robot de Google par exemple ?).

#conceptionWeb

Vos commentaires

mauriz - site -
"Le webmaster et lui seul doit pouvoir décider comment on navigue sur son site". Le webmaster ne crée pas un site pour lui-même, mais pour les visiteurs. C'est lui qui doit être mis au centre lorsque l'on conçoit une page. Pourquoi imposer ses choix alors que l'on peut laisser l'utilisateur libre de choisir.
En fait, je pense qu'ouvrir les liens dans de nouvelles fenêtres est surtout une preuve d'égocentrisme: il est parfois difficile d'admettre que l'utilisateur préfère aller sur un autre site au lieu de rester sur le sien.

Darken - site -
« Le webmaster et lui seul doit pouvoir décider comment on navigue sur son site, avec de nouvelles fenetres s'il veut. »

En effet, ce commentaire fait frémir :-p

J'avais du target="_blank" un peu partout dans les premières versions de mon site. J'ai par la suite bien compris en quoi c'était mauvais, et je tente de convaincre à mon tour ceux qui souhaite en mettre en quoi cela est mauvais.

Pour ma part j'ai bloqué les target="_blank" dans Firebird :)

about:config et browser.block.target_new_window mis à faux.

Talou - site -
Un autre moyen plus subtil est d'ajouter dans le userContent.css (dans le profile de firebird) les lignes suivantes :

/* Change cursor for new window links */
a[href=""],a[target]{cursor: crosshair;}
/* Change cursor back to normal for same window target links */
a[target="_parent"],a[target="_self"],a[target="_top"]{cursor: pointer;}
/* Change cursor for JavaScript links */
a[href^="javascript:"]{cursor: move;}

Cela permet d'être prévenu par le curseur de la souris si l'on a à faire à un lien javascript ou un target, et donc de choisir en conséquence la façon de cliquer dessus (ou de ne pas cliquer du tout...).

balou -
Pour ceux qui sont sous ie, si je me rappelle bien, vous pouvez ouvrir les liens dans une nouvelle fenetre en maintenant la touche shift enfoncée lorsque vous cliquez sur un lien...

caz -
pour moi la navigation sur internet n'a rien de linéaire et le lien hypertexte en est la cause...
peut être une question de sémantique...

mais sinon j'argumenterai dans un autre sens : dans un société où l'image est importante, son contrôle est encore plus important. Le fait que l'on guide l'utilisateur, que l'on contrôle ce qu'il voit n'est pas un héritage de média plus anciens comme l'imprimerie : c'est une technique
-soit de vente,
-soit pour capter l'attention de l'utilisateur,
-soit pour lui signaler un changement

d'autres méthode existent
sans doute les considères tu comme meilleures d'un point de vue technique ou efficacité.
mais tu ne peux pas nier ces effets.

selarips -
sans aller aussi loin que caz, je me contenterai de crier haut et fort : "LINÉAIRE MON CUL"

les "droits de l'utilisateur", c'est bien d'y penser, mais je tiens à signaler qu'un site internet n'est pas un lieu de droit. son concepteur peut faire des pop up en 450x200 si ça lui plait, il est maitre de son espace web à lui, le visiteur, lui, se doit d'être humble et de ne pas trop faire chier non plus

métaphoriquement, si je t'invite chez moi et que je te demande de retirer tes pompes pour pas tout saloper, et ben tu vas le faire. peut etre de mauvais cœur mais c'est pas grave. tu aimes tes belles baskets toutes neuves (les basket c'est firebird), mais ça m'empèchera pas de te les faire retirer comme un sadique :D

selarips -
et si tes chaussettes sont trouées, c'est pas mon problème (ah ah ah, rire sadique qui s'efface dans le lointain)

fastclemmy - site -
(va vraiment falloir que je fasse un schéma pour cette histoire de navigation linéaire qui vous chagrine tant ! ;)

Effectivement le droit le plus absolu du concepteur est de restreindre l'accès à son contenu à un public sélectionné.

Néanmoins, pour la plupart des sites, le but est d'avoir le plus de visiteurs possibles, donc d'avoir un contenu accessible, sans javascript obligatoire par exemple.

selarips -
si t'accepte pas le javascript, alors cela veut dire que tu as les chaussettes trouées
je te conseille fortement d'utiliser un navigateur qui comprend le javascript, c'est tout de même plus confortable (navigateur 4 et plus)

Darken - site -
Yep, j'utilisais cette astuce aussi Talou :) Mais je préfère maintenant la manière radicale, comme ça je n'ai plus de surprise : clic normal je modifie le contenu de la page courante, shift+clic ou clic du milie j'ouvre ailleurs. La règle reste constante. Les target="_blank" je trouve ça aussi chiant que les popups. C'est bien que l'attribut "target" ait été viré en XHTML d'ailleurs.

Anubis - site -
Darken, je suis d'accord, je ne compte plus le nombre de site sur lequel je pestais avec mon ancien ordinateur lorsque ceux-ci voulait m'ouvrir un nouveau naigateur (krrrrrr) alors que je ne pouvais en ouvrir qu'un seul pour des raisons évidentes de ressources matérielles.

C'est pourquoi la joie s'est emparée de moi lorsque j'ai découverte la formidable fonctionnalité de Firebird de bloquer les target='_blank'

loic -
Moi je pensais que le web était un média, un outil de communication. L'éditeur d'un site a un message à faire passer, correspondant à une cible, un objectif, pour valoriser son image. Son site porte donc cette image et la navigation de page en lien et de lien en page forme un scénario que l'éditeur du site a orchestré. Bien sûr, l'éditeur a tout intérêt à rendre le plus accessible possible son information. Le visiteur de son côté vient sur un site par volonté, envie, besoin, curiosité. Il dispose de l'information que lui propose l'éditeur. Il est libre d'aimer ou non l'histoire que lui raconte l'éditeur : pop-up, nouvelle fenêtres, flash, html. Le scénario est écrit. Point. S'il n'aime pas l'histoire, basta. Il y a tellement d'autres sites. Le plus est d'offrir le choix de l'accessibilité. Versions différentes ou calques DIV, peut importe, le tout est de répondre au besoin. Spécifier que tout doit être réalisé uniquement avec des calques DIV, c'est déjà imposer une contrainte technique avant de stipuler le besoin.

fastclemmy - site -
Pop-up, Flash, etc., tout cela est permis. Tout est question en effet Loïc de besoin.

A-t-on besoin d'une intro Flash sur un site ? A-t-on besoin d'ouvrir une pop-up ? Autant de questions qu'il faut de poser lors de la conception du site. Si le besoin devient un impératif, il faut alors trouver une alternative pour rendre le contenu *accessible à tous*.

On a tôt fait de caricaturer les pro-standards en extrémistes castrateurs, pourtant leur démarche est bien de proposer un contenu riche (images, scripts, flash...) pour ceux qui peuvent le lire *tout en s'assurant* que les autres utilisateurs ne soient pas lésés (= aient aussi accès au contenu).

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