fastclemmy.com

Tabula rasa

# 06-07-2004

Quel bonheur que de faire table rase du passé pour se lancer à corps perdu dans le web du futur, je veux bien sûr parler d'un web valide, sémantique et accessible à tous ! Seulement, il ne faut pas oublier d'où l'on vient et ce que l'on doit au passé...

Merci Internet Explorer !

Troll ? Peut-être bien... Mais à bien y regarder, on doit beaucoup au support CSS d'Internet Explorer 5+. Certes, les bugs, défauts, limitations sont nombreux, mais pensez-vous sérieusement que le mouvement pro-standards ait eu un quelconque écho si les standards du web n'étaient supportés que par Opera, Mozilla, Safari ?

Mieux, les déficiences d'IE sont suffisamment grandes pour faciliter la promotion des alternatives sus-citées, ce qui permet de faire mentir l'axiome selon lequel "tous les navigateurs se valent".

Merci la mise en page en tableaux !

Troll ? Peut-être encore un... Pourtant là encore, c'est grâce à ce mal nécessaire que le web a explosé. Replacez-vous aux débuts du web, alors que le support CSS était quasi-inexistant, comment faire une mise en page un tant soit peu attractive sans utiliser les tableaux ? Le web aurait-il explosé si les possibilités graphiques étaient restées au niveau du Minitel ?

Merci et adieu !

Maintenant que l'on a rendu à César... il est temps de passer en effet à la vitesse supérieure. La mise en page en tableaux et Internet Explorer appartiennent au passé. A nous maintenant de le prouver chaque jour en promouvant les alternatives pour un web meilleur...

#humeur

Vos commentaires

[NikO] - site -
Là où la mise en page en tableaux pose probleme, c'est dans les habitudes,

Les webmasters ont pris l'habitude de coder en fonction du rendu voulu, et non pas en fonction du sens des balises et de leur sémantique, et c'est là, l'un des principal défaut que l'on rencontre encore trop souvent, les css commencent à etre largement utilisés, pas forcement comme il faudrait, puisque la plupart du temps, c'est à travers l'utilisation de class, une class pour le td, une class pour ci, etc ... Car le code html utilisé n'est pas optimiser et sémantique ...
C'etait ma petite réaction concernant "merci la mise en page par tableaux ...", on en paye encore les mauvaise habitudes ....

mauriz - site -
Merci Internet Explorer et la mise en page en tableau, c'est gentil d'être venu: vous pouvez rentrez chez vous maintenant ;)

Anubis - site -
Merci la mise en page par tableau d'être aussi peut évolutif et de redonner au W3C toute la crédibilité et le pouvoir qu'il mérite :D

non mais ! -
Après avoir longtemps utilisé les CSS, j'ai découvert les tableaux et depuis c'est le bonheur.

thekeke - site -
Incapable de réussir à centrer un bloc dans une page quelque soit la résolution et le navigateur avec les css, je remercie la mise en page par tableaux et je lui souhaite longue vie ;) Troll ? Pas du tout :)

Ranfaroth -
Incapable de réussir à centrer un bloc dans une page quelque soit la résolution et le navigateur avec les tableaux, je remercie les CSS de m'avoir apporté la solution qui ne comporte que des avantages ;¬)

selarips -
incapable de centrer un pizza calzone dans une assiette quelque soit sa taille, je remercie toutefois mon pizzaiolo et je promet de la manger avec style

rip - site -
Pas si sûr...!

http://www.gateway.com/work/gv/index.shtml?cmpid=biz*HP*seglinks*GV*HOMEPAGEE

max, T, lynx, ......................................

james -
C'est pas les contradictions qui les étouffent...
Centrer un tableau est un jeu d'enfant. Avec les CSS cela relève de l'exploit.

gizmo -
Tu considères 5 lignes de CSS comme un exploit?

ouin ouin ouin -
le CSS c'est facile !!! (non je plaisante)

nima -
Mais pourquoi vous voulez toujours tout centrer ! C'est chiant, vive l'asymétrie ! Osez le contrepied visuel, faites comme les commentaires de Fastclemmy, callez tout en drapeau à droite, c'est vachement plus lisible et ça fait classe parcequ'on se dit que si il utilise le drapeau à droite, c'est qu'il doit vachement s'y connaitre en ergonomie et qu'il a un concept super génial car franchement la plupart des gens qui essaient, comme moi, de caser un drapeau à droite ont souvent bine du mal à trouver de bonnes occasion pour le faire. C'est ça le concept Fastclemmy, et c'est pour ça je j'aime bien :)

james -
Alors d'accord, pas de tableau centré, mais un tableau quand même. 5 lignes pour dire bonjour, c'est pas pour compliquer ce qui est simple ?

Chan -
J'ai réussi à centrer ma pizza calzone dans mon assiette mais du coup les olives et les anchois sont partis dans l'assiette du voisin.

Fred Bird - site -
Plus facile ? Les tableaux, c'est plus facile surtout avec un éditeur wysiwyg... quand on code à la main (=quand on n'ets pas un amateur :p ), les css c'est quand même moins chiant... et plus puissant.

Narius -
Un web ouvert, c'est aussi un web pour les amateurs...

gizmo -
Amateur? Amateur dans quel sens?

Amateur dans les sens des gens qui aiment le web?, Qui ne voudrait pas qu'il deviennent un environnement fermé, stérile, dont la direction serait dictées par une (ou deux) société monopolisitique? Dans ce cas, le respect du standard ouvert est un gage de perennité.

Amateur dans le sens passioné des nouvelles technologies?, Qui aime mettre la main à la pâte et apporter sa pierre à l'édifice? Dans ce cas, le respect d'un standard ouvert et bien documenté est un gage pour lui de ne pas chercher 36 hacks pour arriver au même résultat sur tous les navigateurs.

Amateur dans le sens du débutant qui vient de découvrir le net?, Qui ne sais pas qu'il existe un boutton "back" sur son navigateur et encore moins à quoi peuvent bien servir ces lettres étranges telles que "http://" ou "ftp://"? Dans ce cas, le respect d'un standard ouvert leur permettra de ne pas avoir d'immondes "marquee" ni de devoir attendre 2 minutes pour afficher une simple page d'accueil bourrée de tableau sur leur pauvre 56K fourni avec l'ordi acheté à Auchan (ou ailleurs).

Amateur dans le sens du débutant qui ne comprend pas pourquoi sa page faite avec FrontPage express ne passe pas bien sur Firefox ou autre? Qui a cru les gars du marketting quand on lui a dit que n'importe qui pouvait faire n'importe quoi avec un ordi alors qu'il va chez le garagiste pour se faire changer un pneu? Dans ce cas, non, un standard ouvert ne peut pas grand chose pour lui. L'informatique est un art/métier comme un autre, avec se côté faciles et se côtés plus complexes. En cuisine, n'importe qui sait utiliser un micro-onde (enfin presque). En info, n'importe qui sait taper une lettre avec Word (enfin presque). Faire un fichier HTML, c'est comme se faire un bon spagetthi bolognaise, tu peux ouvrir une boite de bolo toute faite et prendre des pâtes soubri, ca sera mangeable mais pas top. Tu peux aussi te faire des pâtes fraîches et une sauce avec de vrai tomates italiennes, de bon arômates et de l'huile de qualité. Cela demande plus de boulot et surtout de temps au début, mais quelle différence au final!

Bon, sur ce, j'ai trouvé mon repas de ce soir...

Laurent Denis -
"La mise en page en tableaux et Internet Explorer appartiennent au passé"

Il s'agit plutôt d'expliquer aujourd'hui à ceux qui hésitent à franchir le pas que CSS et tableaux ne sont pas équivalents, que l'un et l'autre ne permettent pas d'obtenir les mêmes résultats, que l'important n'est pas la présence ou l'absence de tableaux mais plutôt leur accessibilité (linéarisation) et la validité du code produit, qu'une mise en page avec des tableaux non imbriqués, etc. est un choix rationnel dans le cadre d'une évolution maîtrisée vers la production d'un code standard....

Ce qui appartient au passé, ou devrait le faire, c'est plutôt une vision radicale et utopique de l'adoption des standards.

Mais c'était peut-être le sens caché de ce post provocateur ?

Nima -
gizmo > j'aime beaucoup ton comemntaire, c'est éffectivement comme ça que je vois les choses en tant que développeur. C'est aussi une façon d'aider les amateurs tels que tu les décrits dans ton 4e § à réaliser que nos métiers sont des vrais métiers et que non, le neuveu de 13 ans qui a piraté dreamweaver ne peut pas faire la même chose qu'un intégrateur expérimenté gratuitement.
Les standards sont la protection du web envers les monopoles et la fermeture des formats comem tu l'as dit, mais ils le protège aussi en assurant la qualité des personnes qui le font vivre. Pour les autres il éxiste des outils en lignes gratuits qui leur permettent de s'exprimer sans avoir à tapper une seule ligne de XHTML et sans risquer de foutre le souk dans le paysage du net, et ça leur est bien suffisant.

yuki - site -
hello, merci for your comment! I really enjoy your Blog design. very stylish and great idea! that's true. so I wanted to introduce this fabulous site to my friends.
I wish I could read French though... :)
Oh yes, I have french graphic designers friends in London, they are also stylish.

rip -
J'ai toujour apprécié l'alternance de l'axe horizontal à l'axe verticale dans le sens de la lecture ici ! cela peut avoir une importance sémiotique (syntagmatique, paradigmatique, graphe...)

Je découvre donc le nouveau design, tout en ne sachant pas s'il est terminé et pour en revenir à la première idée, la verticalité des commentaires pourrait être graphiquement plus fluide et le point de jonction "croix (+)"
plus marqué, plus dominant, lié au reste...

" sans impression de par dessus" !

bonne continuation l'abeille...
cordialement

Dom -
Pas folle la break!

rip -
rip > fautes d'inattention :
toujours
vertical
Cela

> Pas folle la break!
that's right !

Une vue de dessus inclinée :

Mais la tête de l'abeille pourrait indiquer la profondeur, vers une verticalité "des commentaires", comme creuser (creuset) un design dans le plan, de "l'affirmation"...


Greg -
En réponse à :
Après avoir longtemps utilisé les CSS, j'ai découvert les tableaux et depuis c'est le bonheur

je dis, moi aussi !!

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